{"id":380,"date":"2016-12-21T17:34:36","date_gmt":"2016-12-21T17:34:36","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/conversion.com\/ruben-gamez-pricing-jtbd-churn\/"},"modified":"2024-08-14T09:43:59","modified_gmt":"2024-08-14T09:43:59","slug":"ruben-gamez-pricing-jtbd-churn","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/conversion.com\/blog\/ruben-gamez-pricing-jtbd-churn\/","title":{"rendered":"Ruben Gamez on how to \u2018get\u2019 inside your customer\u2019s head, reduce churn and effectively test pricing"},"content":{"rendered":"<section class=\"c-post-content\" data-ref=\"case-content\">\n\t<div class=\"post-content\">\n\t\t<div class=\"post-content__container container container--medium\">\n\t\t\t<aside class=\"post-content__sidebar post-content__sidebar--links\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"sticky-menu\" data-ref=\"case-content-menu\">\n\t\t\t\t\t<h3 class=\"sticky-menu__title\">Contents<\/h3>\n\t\t\t\t\t<ul class=\"sticky-menu\">\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t                            \t\t\t\t\t\t\t<li class=\"sticky-menu__item\">\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<a class=\"sticky-menu__item-link  active\" href=\"#introduction\" data-ref=\"case-content-menu-item\">\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<span class=\"arrow\"><svg viewBox=\"0 0 16 20\" fill=\"none\" xmlns=\"http:\/\/www.w3.org\/2000\/svg\"><path d=\"M10.6875 9.34375V7.34375L13.3438 10L10.6875 12.6562V10.6562H2.65625V9.34375H10.6875Z\" fill=\"#F6876F\"\/><\/svg><\/span>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<span class=\"sticky-menu__item-text\">Introduction<\/span>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/a>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/li>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t                            \t\t\t\t\t\t\t<li class=\"sticky-menu__item\">\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<a class=\"sticky-menu__item-link \" href=\"#howtocommunicatevalueofyourproductonthepricingpagewhilekeepingthingssimple\" data-ref=\"case-content-menu-item\">\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<span class=\"arrow\"><svg viewBox=\"0 0 16 20\" fill=\"none\" xmlns=\"http:\/\/www.w3.org\/2000\/svg\"><path d=\"M10.6875 9.34375V7.34375L13.3438 10L10.6875 12.6562V10.6562H2.65625V9.34375H10.6875Z\" fill=\"#F6876F\"\/><\/svg><\/span>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<span class=\"sticky-menu__item-text\">How to communicate value of your product on the pricing page &#8211; while keeping things simple<\/span>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/a>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/li>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t                            \t\t\t\t\t\t\t<li class=\"sticky-menu__item\">\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<a class=\"sticky-menu__item-link \" href=\"#howtoapplyjobstobedoneinterviewstosaasandfinallygetyourcustomersbuildabetterproductandcutdownchurnbyoverthreezero\" data-ref=\"case-content-menu-item\">\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<span class=\"arrow\"><svg viewBox=\"0 0 16 20\" fill=\"none\" xmlns=\"http:\/\/www.w3.org\/2000\/svg\"><path d=\"M10.6875 9.34375V7.34375L13.3438 10L10.6875 12.6562V10.6562H2.65625V9.34375H10.6875Z\" fill=\"#F6876F\"\/><\/svg><\/span>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<span class=\"sticky-menu__item-text\">How to apply Jobs-to-be-Done interviews to SaaS and finally \u2018get\u2019 your customers, build a better product and cut down churn by over 30%?<\/span>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/a>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/li>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t                            \t\t\t\t\t\t\t<li class=\"sticky-menu__item\">\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<a class=\"sticky-menu__item-link \" href=\"#whatexperimentsdidrubenrunonthepricingpagehowdidaquickcopychangehelphimtoincreasethetrialsignupratewhattoolsdoesheusefortrackingandtesting\" data-ref=\"case-content-menu-item\">\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<span class=\"arrow\"><svg viewBox=\"0 0 16 20\" fill=\"none\" xmlns=\"http:\/\/www.w3.org\/2000\/svg\"><path d=\"M10.6875 9.34375V7.34375L13.3438 10L10.6875 12.6562V10.6562H2.65625V9.34375H10.6875Z\" fill=\"#F6876F\"\/><\/svg><\/span>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<span class=\"sticky-menu__item-text\">What experiments did Ruben run on the pricing page? How did a quick copy change help him to increase the trial sign up rate? What tools does he use for tracking and testing?<\/span>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/a>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/li>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/ul>\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/aside>\n\n\t\t\t<div class=\"post-content__content\">\n\t\t\t\t<ul class=\"post-content__sections\">\n\t\t\t\t\t                        \t\t\t\t\t\t<li class=\"post-content__section\" id=\"introduction\" data-ref=\"case-content-item\">\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"post-content__section-content\"><p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In 2009 Ruben started his own company, BidSketch. At its inception BidSketch was a proposal software that was primarily targeted at web designers and web developers. Starting as a one-man show, BidSketch has vastly grown, to this date it helped its customers to make more than $1 billion in sales. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But Ruben\u2019s journey was not an easy one. On the way to his first $1000 there were multiple times when he wanted to give up on the whole idea completely. His initial research showed that the no one had any interest in the product, he wasted a whole month building a free tool that nobody used and even missed his launch date due to unreliable contractors (more on that <\/span><a href=\"http:\/\/www.extendslogic.com\/general\/my-first-1k\/\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">here<\/span><\/a><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">). <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In fact, he even had to hit the $1000\/month mark twice(!). One API call eroded almost all the billing information he had about his customers. In a matter of seconds, his revenue dropped down to zero. He had to email his customers, asking them to reset their paying accounts again. Surely, a fair number of customers did not return.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The upside is &#8211; throughout his journey Ruben has learnt a lot &#8211; and that\u2019s why I am so excited to have had the opportunity to interview him. In 2012 he wrote a blog post, \u201c<\/span><a href=\"http:\/\/www.extendslogic.com\/business\/what-i-learned-from-increasing-my-prices\/\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What I learned from increasing my prices<\/span><\/a><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u201d, where he explains how research and testing allowed BidSketch to see one of the largest spikes in growth it has ever had. Since then his pricing page has evolved even further and that\u2019s what we are about to dig into. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We cover pricing, small tests that he ran that resulted in substantial increases in conversion rate (and revenue), how Ruben used Jobs-to-be-Done interviews to decrease his customers\u2019 churn rate, research and testing tools that helped him on his journey, and so much more. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I recommend you read his original article first (although it\u2019s not required). I\u2019ve learnt a lot and I am sure you will too.<\/span><\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/li>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"post-content__index\">\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<h3 class=\"post-content__index-title\">Contents<\/h3>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<ul class=\"post-content__index-links\" data-ref=\"case-content-menu\">\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<li class=\"post-content__index-link\">\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<a href=\"#introduction\" data-ref=\"case-content-menu-item\">\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\tIntroduction\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/a>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/li>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<li class=\"post-content__index-link\">\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<a href=\"#howtocommunicatevalueofyourproductonthepricingpagewhilekeepingthingssimple\" data-ref=\"case-content-menu-item\">\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\tHow to communicate value of your product on the pricing page &#8211; while keeping things simple\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/a>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/li>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<li class=\"post-content__index-link\">\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<a href=\"#howtoapplyjobstobedoneinterviewstosaasandfinallygetyourcustomersbuildabetterproductandcutdownchurnbyoverthreezero\" data-ref=\"case-content-menu-item\">\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\tHow to apply Jobs-to-be-Done interviews to SaaS and finally \u2018get\u2019 your customers, build a better product and cut down churn by over 30%?\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/a>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/li>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<li class=\"post-content__index-link\">\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<a href=\"#whatexperimentsdidrubenrunonthepricingpagehowdidaquickcopychangehelphimtoincreasethetrialsignupratewhattoolsdoesheusefortrackingandtesting\" data-ref=\"case-content-menu-item\">\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\tWhat experiments did Ruben run on the pricing page? How did a quick copy change help him to increase the trial sign up rate? What tools does he use for tracking and testing?\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/a>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/li>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/ul>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t                        \t\t\t\t\t\t<li class=\"post-content__section\" id=\"howtocommunicatevalueofyourproductonthepricingpagewhilekeepingthingssimple\" data-ref=\"case-content-item\">\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<h2 class=\"post-content__section-title\">Part 1: How to communicate value of your product on the pricing page &#8211; while keeping things simple<\/h2>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"post-content__section-content\"><p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">A little bit of background history.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Here\u2019s the first version of BidSketch pricing page (2010)<\/b><\/p>\n<p><img decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-814 aligncenter\" src=\"https:\/\/conversion.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2022\/06\/image03.png\" alt=\"\" width=\"598\" height=\"401\" \/><\/p>\n<p><b>Here\u2019s the version that resulted in one of the largest spikes in revenue (the one he talks about in his article). \u00a0<\/b><b>This is 2012.<\/b><\/p>\n<p><img decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-820 aligncenter\" src=\"https:\/\/conversion.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2022\/06\/image09.png\" alt=\"\" width=\"600\" height=\"429\" \/><\/p>\n<p><b>This is the version that we see today (in 2016)<\/b><\/p>\n<p><img decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-821 aligncenter\" src=\"https:\/\/conversion.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2022\/06\/image10.png\" alt=\"\" width=\"599\" height=\"503\" \/><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"><span style=\"text-decoration: underline;\">Egor:<\/span> First of all, I would like to understand the context behind your pricing page, how it evolved over the years, and then get into the nitty-gritty of what research questions did you find being most useful, any actionable tips you can share, things that delivered the most results. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><img decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-813 aligncenter\" src=\"https:\/\/conversion.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2022\/06\/image02.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"599\" height=\"245\" \/><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The major difference that I can see is that you had freelancer, studio and agency plans. Then, today in 2016 it is split into Solo, Team and Business. How did that change happen? The first one seemed to be more tailored to customer personas (web designers in particular), and this one seems to be more generic &#8211; more applicable to everyone. Did you change it as you scaled or was there another reason for that?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"text-decoration: underline;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Ruben:<\/span><\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Initially,<\/span> <span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">when<\/span> <span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">we had the premium and basic plans (when BidSketch first launched), it was for designers. By the time I did this pricing change, it was no longer for designers, but it still was for\u2026 you know, creatives. \u00a0I think at the time 80% or 90% were the categories of either web designers, marketing, freelancers, SEO, developers, people from companies in those categories. Persona-based pricing was a good fit for that.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Then, there was a point where we started getting more customers as we scaled, and that distribution started to change. We saw that it started to change through a few surveys, but beyond that, we also started to see it in cancellation feedback of people who were entering the trial period. More and more people were saying, \u2018I don\u2019t think this is for me. I don\u2019t feel like it was made for my business. It seems as if it was made for designers or web developers\u2019.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We started changing the product, for example, adding<\/span> <span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">more<\/span> <span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">templates<\/span> <span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">for<\/span> <span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">more businesses. That way we had a bunch of different signals in the app that spoke to <\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">those<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> kinds of businesses. Then we started generalizing even more and<\/span> <span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">adding<\/span> <span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">more<\/span> <span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">resources<\/span> <span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">to appeal to them. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But we were still getting that the last piece was the pricing page. We<\/span> <span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">looked<\/span> <span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">at<\/span> <span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">the<\/span> <span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">businesses that were cancelling, at their websites and we talked to them. With some of them we did Jobs-to-be-Done interviews. It was like, ok, the pricing might be unclear when somebody goes to the pricing page and they see freelancer, studio, agency, and they are not that type of company. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">For example, they could be from a SaaS company doing enterprise sales, and they would think, \u2018hmm, this is not quite right\u2019. So, we did a test to see if there would be an impact on conversions. In the previous test [the change that was carried out in 2012, see images above] where we changed general names [Basic and Premium] to freelancer, agency and studio plan names, we got more customers. This time around when we tested Business, Team and Solo, we got less trials, which was interesting, but we got a little bit more customers at a bit of a higher price point. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"text-decoration: underline;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Egor:<\/span><\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> That\u2019s very interesting. First of all, you targeted specific segments or even identities, and achieved an uplift, and then you repositioned it\u2026 with an appeal to broader audiences. It seems like the opposite of the technique that worked for you in the first place led to more people being closed.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"text-decoration: underline;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Ruben:<\/span><\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Right, you know. Business changes, market changes, competition, traffic you get, there are a lot of variables. It\u2019s a good idea to retest, I do that sometimes \u2013 retest things that did not work before. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"text-decoration: underline;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Egor:<\/span><\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Another change that I can see is your plans are primarily limited by the number of users; and previously the limitations included proposals, clients and users [and storage]. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><img decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-812 aligncenter\" src=\"https:\/\/conversion.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2022\/06\/image01.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"599\" height=\"248\" \/><\/p>\n<p><img decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignnone size-full wp-image-819\" src=\"https:\/\/conversion.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2022\/06\/image08.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"943\" height=\"238\" \/><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The limitations you set for your plans are important, aren\u2019t they? <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">They can act as an incentive for a client to upgrade. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The extent to which your product and its different features are used also affects your cost base. For example, if the number of proposals that a customer can set closely correlates with your costs, and you make it <\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">unlimited<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">, then your cost base could skyrocket [if customers start creating loads of proposals]. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Probably, this is not the case given the fact that you removed it, but I am just trying to understand what was your thinking behind setting some of these limitations, for example, users, and removing other ones (proposals and clients)? Is it primarily customer-research driven? Was it somehow affected by your consideration of costs and profit? What was your thinking process?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"text-decoration: underline;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Ruben:<\/span><\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> It was based off of a couple of things. One was we looked at the data when we had very simple plans, either a plan with one user or a plan with unlimited users [the very first plans Bidsketch had in 2010]. Looking at the data, we could see very clear groupings or break-points. They were not getting charged for those extra users, so we could see naturally how many people on one account used the product. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We\u2019ve seen a bunch of companies with two or three users. Then, we\u2019d see, I think the next point was 5, and the next one 8. Just based off of that data, it felt like a really good test. We also looked at different types of companies that had these different numbers of users. That was one of the things that we looked at, and the other thing was features. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Basically, since we were just leveraging users [as a limitation], we mainly looked at customising domains and team management [for different plans]. Team management does not really mean anything for people who are on the 1 user plan, but it\u2019s there to make it feel a lot more different, like you\u2019re getting a lot more value on a higher priced plan where you have more users. We could probably eliminate that row, and it would still be clear what the differences are [between these plans]. The reason why it\u2019s there is to make it <\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">feel<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> more different, it\u2019s something to make it stand out more. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Overall, we used a combination of metrics and qualitative data. One limitation, users, was based off of our quant data. Ability to customise your own domain is something that was highly valued based off of our conversations with customers. We tried to do both; we looked at the data that we have <\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">and<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> we tried to have conversations with customers to get clarity on that data, to make sure that what we think we are seeing is <\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">actually<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> what we are seeing. That was the thinking behind it. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The proposals\u2026 I am trying to remember why [we had in the first place], I think the proposals was an attempt to have something else that we use to push people towards the $29\/month plan. That\u2019s why we did it and when we had this plan, most people signed up to the $29\/month plan. Most people did not sign up to the $19\/month plan although it was cheaper. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So, I don\u2019t think I ever really tested that <\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">before<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> [specifically testing impact of proposals]. At one point I wanted to simplify pricing. So, we ran surveys and asked people what confused them. There were few things that would come up in [the surveys], but one thing that I just wondered about was is, \u2018Is the number of proposals actually doing anything?\u2019. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Hiten Shah from KISSmetrics, CrazyEgg, recommends sometimes doing what he calls sensitivity testing, which is just: remove something from the page, see if it\u2019s actually working. Instead of adding something or changing it, just take it off, see if it actually has any impact. So, we did that and you know it did not get any worse, it did not get any better. So, I dropped it, just because I like simple, simple is better. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"text-decoration: underline;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Egor:<\/span><\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Was is the same for the \u2018clients\u2019 limitation?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"text-decoration: underline;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Ruben:<\/span><\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Well, we dropped the freelancer plan (the $19 plan) out of the main grid to add another plan. So, clients is a metric that we still limit on, but not on any of the plans that are on the grid. It\u2019s limited on the link below the plan. Since the other plans on the grid are more expensive and we don\u2019t limit clients on any of them, there is no need to have that.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><img decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-816 aligncenter\" src=\"https:\/\/conversion.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2022\/06\/image05.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"599\" height=\"456\" \/><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"text-decoration: underline;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Egor:<\/span><\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Ah, I saw that. There is a link below that takes you to another plan. I read this <\/span><a href=\"https:\/\/copyhackers.com\/2014\/02\/optimized-crazy-egg-home-page\/?utm_source=conversion.com\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">case study<\/span><\/a><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> where Joanna Wiebe from CopyHackers optimized CrazyEgg\u2019s website, I think they did a similar sensitivity test. They removed the Johnson\u2019s box on the left which is a navigation box, and I think they removed it in order to&#8230; basically, to make more space, so that they can put more content above-the-fold on that landing page. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">You said that you tried to simplify the plans. As far as I understand, BidSketch has many more features than what is currently listed on the pricing page. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">How did you\u2026 I am asking this because usually when I look at enterprise SaaS at least, they have a huge list of different features. It just falls on you and sometimes I start feeling overwhelmed.<\/span><\/p>\n<div id=\"attachment_817\" style=\"width: 614px\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\"><img aria-describedby=\"caption-attachment-817\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-817 \" src=\"https:\/\/conversion.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2022\/06\/image06.jpg\" width=\"604\" height=\"351\" \/><\/p>\n<p id=\"caption-attachment-817\" class=\"wp-caption-text\">Example of a pricing page with a loooong list of features<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">You can sense that the one with a larger list is meant to be more attractive for larger businesses, but to really find something for yourself&#8230; it\u2019s hard, sometimes I can\u2019t even make it through. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So, my question is: How did you come to that list of features that is currently listed on your pricing page? Your plans look very simplified and easy-to-digest.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"text-decoration: underline;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Ruben:<\/span><\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> There was mainly\u2026 I think when we were working on the second version of these plans, we tested just having a bunch of features on the left hand-side, having them listed <\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">all<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> out, more detailed [like the SurveyGizmo example above], and the simpler version won; it did better. So, that\u2019s what moved us in that direction. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We also did some Qualaroo surveys. We found that yes, there can be value from showing what are the features on <\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">each<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> of these plans, even if the feature does not communicate what are the <\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">differences <\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">between each of these plans, it is still valuable for users to know.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Even if you pushed everyone to see your tour page before they see the pricing page, not everyone will actively engage with your tour page. They might just skip to pricing, this is why I think it\u2019s important to show important features that are available on <\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">all<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> the plans. But it does not have to be done in a way that a lot of people do it, which is a column on a left hand side, and on the right there is a pricing grid. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We are doing it at the bottom before the sign-up button where we say, \u201cAll plans include templates, branding, and PDF export\u201d.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><img decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-818 aligncenter\" src=\"https:\/\/conversion.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2022\/06\/image07.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"600\" height=\"346\" \/><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Also, we don\u2019t [show] <\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">all<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> of the features that we have, we only have those features that are <\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">most<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> important to people. The ones that we know from interviews and surveys, they are the most important things because they asked for them or whatever. So, it\u2019s sort of still limited, but it\u2019s shown there. And when you have them on the left hand side, it\u2019s just more energy, it adds more visual noise, it makes it harder to parse through the pricing grid. <\/span><\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/li>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t                        \t\t\t\t\t\t<li class=\"post-content__section\" id=\"howtoapplyjobstobedoneinterviewstosaasandfinallygetyourcustomersbuildabetterproductandcutdownchurnbyoverthreezero\" data-ref=\"case-content-item\">\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<h2 class=\"post-content__section-title\">Part 2: How to apply Jobs-to-be-Done interviews to SaaS and finally \u2018get\u2019 your customers, build a better product and cut down churn by over 30%?<\/h2>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"post-content__section-content\"><p><span style=\"text-decoration: underline;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Egor:<\/span><\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> So, to simplify the plan you needed to limit the number of features you are showing. To do this, you did research and identified what customers found being most valuable in your product, what research and what types of questions. You said you used Qualaroo surveys, you used interviews &#8211; what exact questions did you find most useful when trying to understand what your customers find being most valuable?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"text-decoration: underline;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Ruben:<\/span><\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> It\u2019s two things. It\u2019s seeing <\/span><b>what they are using when they pay<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">, and it\u2019s never been directly asking them, but <\/span><b>finding out what they chose or why they chose it<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">, for example, when they upgraded or decided to pay. This came up through Jobs-to-be-Done interviews where we did \u2018switch interviews.\u2019 <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In those you focus on what happened; the steps that they took when they stopped using whatever it is that they were using previously and started paying for our product. In that, there is a point where they are evaluating and they are deciding and it\u2019s pretty clear&#8230; <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">You ask them, \u2018What did you do next? What you didn\u2019t do next? Why did you do that? Ok, what was you thinking at this point? Did you have any concerns?\u2019 The thing that generally comes out is the decision that they were making, the <\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">trade-offs<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> that they were making when they were buying, so then you get to see, \u2018Aha!\u2019 <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So, to them the branding part is not really that important because that did not stop their decision, that did not stop them from upgrading, but they were not sure about custom domains, so in their trial they did not upgrade or did not pay or did not start their plan early &#8211; even though they wanted to &#8211; until they set up DNS and set up their custom domain, etc\u2019. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So, there are a bunch of little stories like that, so that we can then see, ok, these were the themes that helped them to decide to pay and these are the ones that did not. So, again, we used a combination of that [qualitative data, specifically JTBD interviews] and quantitative data.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"text-decoration: underline;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Egor:<\/span><\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> You mentioned switch interviews and Jobs-to-be-Done interviews. I have heard of Jobs-to-Done as a concept [when I read Clayton Christensen\u2019s \u201cHow will you measure your life?\u201d], but I have not heard of Jobs-to-be-Done interviews. Is it a standardised set of questions you use, do you prepare it yourself, is it some type of framework? Could you explain it to me? <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"text-decoration: underline;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Ruben:<\/span><\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Yeah, sure. Generally we run switch interviews. It\u2019s about capturing the story of the switching moment. So, instead of asking them, \u201cWhy did you sign up? How did you like it?\u201d, or any things like that, you approach it in a different way. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Basically, people often don\u2019t know on the surface why [they made a particular decision]. Or they would give you reasons that they think you want to hear, but instead with switch interviews you start by asking\u2026 <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Well, you start in a lot of different ways, but the framework for asking these questions is to find out:<\/span><\/p>\n<ul>\n<li style=\"font-weight: 400;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">what they were using before<\/span><\/li>\n<li style=\"font-weight: 400;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">when did they start to have problems or doubts with the things they were using<\/span><\/li>\n<li style=\"font-weight: 400;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">why did they start looking for something else<\/span><\/li>\n<li style=\"font-weight: 400;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">why did they start to evaluate something else<\/span><\/li>\n<li style=\"font-weight: 400;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">why did they start to evaluate it or sign up for it <\/span><b>at <\/b><b><i>that<\/i><\/b><b> moment<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">, on that day instead of the day before, the day after, to really dig into it<\/span><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">You want to have them walk you through every step of what happened in order to understand their thinking, their process and ask, \u2018What were you thinking here? Why did you do this? Why did you do that?\u2019 instead of asking, \u2018Why did you sign up?\u2019. And going through that story where you are finding out what the <\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">moment<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> when they decided to buy &#8211; through their actions &#8211; was, and what their thinking was. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[<strong>My note:<\/strong> Notice how the approach above is different from standard CRO questions such as, \u201cWhat persuaded you to purchase from us today?\u201d.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">For those unfamiliar with JTBD framework, think about what Ruben said before: often customers do not know the deep reasons behind <\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">why<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> they signed up. So, often if you just ask, \u2018Why did you sign up?\u2019, you will get a lot of surface answers. Eg. \u2018I just needed to create proposals for my business.\u2019 This is not very actionable. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Instead, with JTBD interviews you go through their story and ask them why they made certain decisions in the past that ultimately led to the final purchase decision. When people go back in time and start recalling situations and context in which these decisions were made, more detailed memories start coming out on the surface and the real motives behind one\u2019s purchase are revealed. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It didn\u2019t click with me until I read Alan Klement\u2019s book \u201c<\/span><a href=\"http:\/\/www.whencoffeeandkalecompete.com\/?utm_source=conversion.com\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">When Coffee and Kale compete<\/span><\/a><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u201d and tried conducting a JTBD interview myself, but the quickest way to get to your first \u201caha\u201d moment with JTBD framework is to listen to the JTBD <\/span><a href=\"http:\/\/jobstobedone.org\/radio\/the-mattress-interview-part-one\/?utm_source=conversion.com\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Mattress interview<\/span><\/a><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">].<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"text-decoration: underline;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Egor:<\/span><\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> So, when does it happen? Does it happen straight after someone converted into purchase or can it happen at any time?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"text-decoration: underline;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Ruben:<\/span><\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Well, it\u2019s a SaaS product, there are two things. There\u2019s a ton of friction when we ask for a credit card upfront for someone to sign up for a trial. So, that\u2019s one thing. There has to be enough\u2026 enough momentum and something pushing them towards entering their credit card information to do that <\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">right<\/span><\/i> <i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">at<\/span><\/i> <i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">that<\/span><\/i> <i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">moment<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">. That\u2019s one point and the other more important point is when they actually decided to buy. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Since that\u2019s a SaaS product where we just bill them automatically on day 14, it\u2019s not on day 14 that they decided to buy. Maybe they forgot to cancel, so a month later they\u2019re going to ask for a refund. Maybe they haven\u2019t even set it up yet. It\u2019s like, \u2018yeah, in a few months we will\u2019. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Usually, it\u2019s at some point during the trial or some point after they started paying, after the trial. We often cover that with a question, \u2018At what point did you know it was going to work for you?\u2019. We walked through the whole story and \u2018yeah, it\u2019s working, we used it and it was really good\u2019. It\u2019s like, ok, good, at what point did you realise that it was ok, before that point you were trying it out, trying to see and then at some point something happened where you saw something and you thought, \u2018Yes, this is gonna work\u2019. That\u2019s the <\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">buying moment<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"text-decoration: underline;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Egor:<\/span><\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> So, you are trying to get them to narrate a story about themselves as opposed to trying to make them rationalise <\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">why <\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">they made that purchase. And then you try to understand why they made that purchase by listening to their story and analyzing it yourself rather than making them to rationalise it for you. That\u2019s very interesting. Did someone create switch interviews? Where did it originate from?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"text-decoration: underline;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Ruben:<\/span><\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Yeah, two guys from the Re-Wired Group that work closely with Clayton Christensen on implementing Jobs-to-be-Done interviews. Bob Moesta and Chris Spiek. They do these interviews with really big clients. They put on these Switch Workshops where they teach this concept. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So, we have also done cancellation interviews where people are switching <\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">away<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> from our product to something else. Our product is the thing that they were using and they had a problem with, and eventually people started using something else. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"text-decoration: underline;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Egor:<\/span><\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> When you say interviews, do you mean calling and talking through their story? What is the set up like?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"text-decoration: underline;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Ruben:<\/span><\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Yeah, these are like 30-45 minute interviews. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"text-decoration: underline;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Egor:<\/span><\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Is it difficult to recruit people for these interviews?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"text-decoration: underline;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Ruben:<\/span><\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> If it\u2019s for people who are paying, we are trying to do the switch interviews for people who paid at least once or they just finished payment for the next month. We do it there because we still want it to be fresh in their mind. We also want to make sure that they are paying [ie. they did not just forget to cancel]. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"text-decoration: underline;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Egor:<\/span><\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Is it difficult to get people to agree to these interviews? Do you use some type of incentive? What kind of email do you send?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"text-decoration: underline;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Ruben:<\/span><\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> We have not had too much luck recruiting through email. So, generally we do not do that. We previously recruited through Qualaroo surveys inside the app or using Intercom inside the app, taking them through a survey and getting them an incentive. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Recruiting for people who cancelled is much harder than people who just paid for your product, especially when you want to get them on the phone for that long. So, for people that cancelled we did a cancel confirmation page, it came up with a message, saying that they have been cancelled, sorry to see them go, feedback is very important to us, please, help us improve, asking them if they would be willing to participate in a 30-45 minute interview. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">To show our appreciation, we\u2019ll toss in a $100 Amazon gift card. It can work without the gift card, we have done that, with the gift card it\u2019s just so much faster. We have a really big incentive. You generally need around 10 to 15 of these interviews. As you don\u2019t need a lot of interviews, it\u2019s well worth for us to give $100 per person for the data that we would get. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"text-decoration: underline;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Egor:<\/span><\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> That\u2019s amazing! So, based on what I have heard so far, there are two types, switch interviews and cancellation interviews. What did you find most valuable? With switch interviews you are trying to understand what happened in someone\u2019s life and led them to start paying for your product. With cancellation interviews, are you trying to understand why your value proposition suffers? What\u2019s the main value of these interviews?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"text-decoration: underline;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Ruben:<\/span><\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> We have exit surveys on the cancel form. It\u2019s a required form where they tell us why they are cancelling. The vast majority of people are just saying, \u2018Did not use it enough\u2019, so there is a percentage of people who say, \u2018Well, this did not work or that did not work\u2019. People that cancel in the early months, first month after paying or the first 2 months after paying, it\u2019s generally onboarding stuff. They just did not finish setting up their account, they did not fully implement it or they just did it once, things like that. It\u2019s still a symptom, but the <\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">reason<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> for that varies. And people that cancel that have been using it for a while, they tend to be in <\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">different<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> categories. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So, the cancellation interviews were to get more insight into what we were seeing as far as the feedback that they were giving us. It felt kind of superficial. It was light, it was better than nothing in these cancel forms, but we wanted to see what the stories were behind that. In particular, the biggest category was \u2018not using it enough\u2019. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What do you mean by \u2018I am not using it enough\u2019? Why not? It\u2019s not just not using it. There was a reason for it. In some cases, there was a big disconnect between what they expected and what they got.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Another thing that came up was about the term \u2018proposal\u2019. There was a disconnect to what they understood as proposals and what the app offered them. It\u2019s a proposal app and once they sign up, they have proposals in their mind to create and send. Then, they start using it and they think, \u2018Ok, that thing was more thorough than what I currently use\u2019, it has <\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">a lot of<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> features for the proposals that I send. Proposals that I send are very simple.\u2019 <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Well, taking a look at their \u201cproposal\u201d, it is not really a proposal, they are sending an estimate or they are sending a contract, but for a lot of people these <\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">are<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> their sales proposals. These people were less likely to buy. So, as a result of these cancellation interviews we set up examples and help documentation around those other types of documents.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There are several categories and things like that. Sometimes it\u2019s a setup thing, it\u2019s just onboarding, if it\u2019s onboarding, then you can fix it. But it\u2019s much easier to uncover what those reasons are after doing interviews <\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">that<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> way. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"text-decoration: underline;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Egor:<\/span><\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I see. Did you make any other product changes or marketing changes that came as a result of these interviews? And did you see any tangible results from these changes?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"text-decoration: underline;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Ruben:<\/span><\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Some of the pricing grid changes that we have already talked about. Through those interviews, that\u2019s where we got the insight. Knowing what features we want to show on that page, on the left hand side or just at the bottom, and which features should we not even bother showing. A lot of that insight came from that. As far as pricing\u2026<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"text-decoration: underline;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Egor:<\/span><\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> It does not necessarily have to be about pricing. Anything related to product or marketing&#8230;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"text-decoration: underline;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Ruben:<\/span><\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> The \u2018pause\u2019 feature for their account, where they pay $5 a month is actually used and people come back and un-pause their account and start paying again. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"text-decoration: underline;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Egor:<\/span><\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Is it for people who are not using it actively, but want to stay?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"text-decoration: underline;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Ruben:<\/span><\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Right, with people who were cancelling it was kind of streaky. Especially if they are smaller, they would send out some proposals, then they would get something. They\u2019d be busy with that project for several months and would not be using BidSketch. Then, we would bill them and we would bill them again. They would think, \u2018I need to cancel, I am not using this\u2019. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Then, in 2 more months they would start using it again. So, they would sign up for another trial and create another account and would not have the past history or anything like that. So, they would <\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">like<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> to have had all their past history and not have to set everything up again. Just implementing that was a pretty good thing that came from that. It worked. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It\u2019s used in the way that it was meant to be used. We monitored it, and we worried that people would just leave it there and not come back, but a lot of people <\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">did<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> come back. So, that\u2019s working well. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The other thing was yearly plans. Being more aggressive with yearly because of that cycle. This is another thing that came from Jobs-to-be-Done interviews. Being able to change the evaluation period in their mind. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><img decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-811 aligncenter\" src=\"https:\/\/conversion.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2022\/06\/image00.png\" alt=\"\" width=\"598\" height=\"179\" \/><\/p>\n<p><img decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-823 aligncenter\" src=\"https:\/\/conversion.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2022\/06\/image12.png\" alt=\"\" width=\"600\" height=\"165\" \/><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">When someone is on a yearly plan, it\u2019s about, \u2018How much did I use it this year?\u2019 It\u2019s a very different question from the one you ask yourself every month, \u2018Did I use it? Oh no, this month I did not.\u2019 So, maybe I used it 20 times in a year, but it was all in 3 months or 4 months cycles throughout the year. The rest of the months were not used at all. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">For somebody who is evaluating on the yearly basis that works. For somebody who is evaluating monthly, sometimes it\u2019s worth it if they think about it in terms of their entire usage per year, but a lot of people don\u2019t think that way. People literally think, \u2018Oh, this is a second month I have not used it\u2019. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"text-decoration: underline;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Egor:<\/span><\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> So, what did you do? Did you just literally push more people on the yearly plans as opposed to offering monthly plans?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"text-decoration: underline;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Ruben:<\/span><\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Yeah, and pitching yearly plans through Intercom at day 45 or something like that, and giving link for an upgrade with a big discount to invoices. Basically, pitching them everywhere. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Half of the traffic that we get to the pricing page gets defaulted to yearly plans, and the other half to monthly with the option to pay upfront yearly. It\u2019s a little ghetto, but it gives us the right amount of yearly paid accounts without sacrificing too much of the monthly revenue.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"text-decoration: underline;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Egor:<\/span><\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Is it easy to convince people? Do you convince them with just a discount or do you build a bigger business case around it?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"text-decoration: underline;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Ruben:<\/span><\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Well\u2026 The discount does most of the work. Just having a generous discount, then pitching it at the right time for the people that do not default to it or initially take it. Some people don\u2019t even know if this is going to work. They don\u2019t feel secure enough with going for something yearly. That\u2019s why\u2026 I found that about a 45 day mark is a good time for us to do that. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"text-decoration: underline;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Egor:<\/span><\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> How did you come to that 45 day mark? Was it through experimentation\/trial-and-error?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"text-decoration: underline;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Ruben:<\/span><\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Through a lot of conversations that we had, we could tell that by then, not everyone, there are many people that are still unsure, but most people would surely love it and know if it\u2019s going to work for them or not. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"text-decoration: underline;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Egor:<\/span><\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> How did you come to your current discount? If I am correct, it\u2019s 40%.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"text-decoration: underline;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Ruben:<\/span><\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> 40% is for the middle plan, 26% percent for the other plans. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"text-decoration: underline;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Egor:<\/span><\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> How did you come to this?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"text-decoration: underline;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Ruben:<\/span><\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> We tested discounts. We started maybe at 10% or so, I don\u2019t remember exactly what they were. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"text-decoration: underline;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Egor:<\/span><\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> So, you started with discounts and then you looked at how many people would get into a yearly plan? Was is the main KPI for that one?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"text-decoration: underline;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Ruben:<\/span><\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Yes.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"text-decoration: underline;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Egor:<\/span><\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Ok, and then you just went up and up with your discount and looked at what the effect would be?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"text-decoration: underline;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Ruben:<\/span><\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> That\u2019s right.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"text-decoration: underline;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Egor:<\/span><\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I want to come back to the pause feature. There has been a number of times when I would have certainly paid a small fee. I think it\u2019s very smart&#8230;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"text-decoration: underline;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Ruben:<\/span><\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> It\u2019s something that I think a lot of SaaS products could do. I\u2019ve seen it done with a pre-pause, I don\u2019t remember the exact products. I wanted to do a \u2018pay\u2019 one because we don\u2019t want to pause just a bunch of accounts where people had no intention of coming back. So, it was just that if they are willing to pay at least $5\/month, they see that there is real value in this for them. [In that case], they would be more likely to then un-pause it at some point. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"text-decoration: underline;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Egor:<\/span><\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> And do a lot of people come back?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"text-decoration: underline;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Ruben:<\/span><\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Yep. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"text-decoration: underline;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Egor:<\/span><\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> So, it works.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"text-decoration: underline;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Ruben:<\/span><\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> It seems to be working for us. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"text-decoration: underline;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Egor:<\/span><\/span> <i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">How<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> does it work? When someone cancels Bidsketch, does their account get deleted straightaway, so they have to create a new one? What is the process? Is it not being saved anyways? What is the incentive for people to pause?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"text-decoration: underline;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Ruben:<\/span><\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> If they were <\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">not<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> to pause, if they were to cancel, then all their data gets deleted. If they were to come back, they would have to create a new account and recreate everything.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"text-decoration: underline;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Egor:<\/span><\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Are they being notified of that in advance? If I am cancelling, am I being told that all the data will be deleted?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"text-decoration: underline;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Ruben:<\/span><\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Yes, when people cancel, we explain to them that their data is going to be deleted. We make them to tick an extra check-box. We explicitly prompt them during the cancellation flow, so they can choose to pause instead of cancelling. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"text-decoration: underline;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Egor:<\/span><\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I want to clarify the thing about these interview. You seem to have mentioned 3 types of interviews. There are Jobs-to-be-done interviews, switch interviews and cancellation interviews. Are these all separate types?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"text-decoration: underline;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Ruben:<\/span><\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> It\u2019s the same type. I just cycle through, but I would say there are 2 types: \u2018switching to\u2019 and \u2018switching away from\u2019 interviews. We have also have done a lot of regular customer development interviews. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"text-decoration: underline;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Egor:<\/span><\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> And what exactly do you mean by that?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"text-decoration: underline;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Ruben:<\/span><\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Just interviews that are generally shorter and are more direct. And we are not capturing their story about why they switched or not. It\u2019s for people who have been already using the product, and when we are usually trying to get more insights around some data that we have collected somewhere or we are trying to get clarification around something. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We ask very specific questions about, for instance, the proposal thing, the term. What sort of documents, what are they sending through BidSketch, what are these documents, what do they contain, what do they have, are these documents to close a sale? Are they being sent through Bidsketch? Or are they being sent through email or other apps? This is an example of us trying to get more data through short custdev interviews, asking very direct questions.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"text-decoration: underline;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Egor:<\/span><\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> So, with switch and cancellation interviews, you are trying to understand the Jobs-to-be-Done. With regular ones, you are just trying to clarify any questions you have about a certain aspect of your existing data.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"text-decoration: underline;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Ruben:<\/span><\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Right.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"text-decoration: underline;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Egor:<\/span><\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> And with Jobs-to-be-done what questions did you find the most useful?]<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I actually have them in my blog <\/span><a href=\"http:\/\/www.extendslogic.com\/business\/jobs-to-be-done-cancel-interviews\/?utm_source=conversion.com\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">post<\/span><\/a><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">. There is a section in there, a cheat sheet with all the questions.<\/span><\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/li>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t\t\t                            <div data-target=\"post-newsletter-anchor\" data-device=\"mobile\"><\/div>\n                        \t\t\t\t\t                        \t\t\t\t\t\t<li class=\"post-content__section\" id=\"whatexperimentsdidrubenrunonthepricingpagehowdidaquickcopychangehelphimtoincreasethetrialsignupratewhattoolsdoesheusefortrackingandtesting\" data-ref=\"case-content-item\">\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<h2 class=\"post-content__section-title\">Part 3: What experiments did Ruben run on the pricing page? How did a quick copy change help him to increase the trial sign up rate? What tools does he use for tracking and testing?<\/h2>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"post-content__section-content\"><p><span style=\"text-decoration: underline;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Egor:<\/span><\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Coming back to the original re-design of your pricing page, you said you looked at the data. How did you look it up? Did you use any tools or did you just have it in your back-end?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"text-decoration: underline;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Ruben:<\/span><\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Both our back-end and Kissmetrics. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"text-decoration: underline;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Egor:<\/span><\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> And what did you use for experimentation, for A\/B testing?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"text-decoration: underline;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Ruben:<\/span><\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> It was a combination of Optimizely and Kissmetrics.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"text-decoration: underline;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Ruben:<\/span><\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Optimizely is good for re-directing traffic and seeing the results on that page that we are testing, and then we use Kissmetrics to see the impact throughout the funnel, on sign-ups, cancellations, etc. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"text-decoration: underline;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Egor:<\/span><\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> So, tracking long-term effects.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"text-decoration: underline;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Ruben:<\/span><\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> To make sure that \u2018yes, it helped our conversions\u2019, it also did not negatively impact cancellations or something else. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"text-decoration: underline;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Egor:<\/span><\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Now I want to dissect your current pricing page. As you can see, I numbered every element of your current pricing page. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><img decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-822 aligncenter\" src=\"https:\/\/conversion.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2022\/06\/image11-1.png\" alt=\"\" width=\"600\" height=\"509\" \/><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">A couple of things are going here that I find interesting. First thing you do is communicate your value proposition in the headline. Then, you seem to communicate not just the value of your product, but value of the free trial itself. I looked at <\/span><a href=\"https:\/\/sumome.com\/pricing?utm_source=conversion.com\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">SumoMe<\/span><\/a><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u2019s pricing page today and they did not have any of those elements. How did you come to that?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"text-decoration: underline;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Ruben:<\/span><\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Number one used to be number two based off of some other page, I think it was Basecamp or something similar. At that time, I did not do a lot of testing around \u2018get started in less than a minute\u2019 or \u2018get started quickly\u2019. That seemed like a good idea, I had that on there, and I wanted to test something different than that. Basically, just to test the value proposition. So, we tested that and it did a little bit better. So, we kept that and I did not have number two at all. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There were questions that we asked through Qualaroo surveys. Asking people what\u2019s stopping them from signing up to where it made me want to test number 2 underneath. It helped a little bit.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We did not see really huge jumps in trials, but most of them were just a little bit better, and so we left number 2. I was actually kind of surprised with number 2, I tested it, but I remember thinking, \u2018yeah, it probably won\u2019t do anything, but I just can\u2019t think of anything better\u2019, but in the test it actually worked. I thought, \u2018Ha! They are reading that and it actually makes a difference to them!\u2019 <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"text-decoration: underline;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Egor:<\/span><\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Was impact just on the free trial sign-ups or did the impact translate into actual sales?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"text-decoration: underline;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Ruben:<\/span><\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Yeah, it did! And the order of the plans, we had the order differently, from small to big, and we tested that, the sign-ups mostly stayed the same, but the distribution was a little different. Our revenue per customer was a little higher, it got more people paying on the higher-tier plans. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"text-decoration: underline;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Egor:<\/span><\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> It also seems to me that you are trying to communicate value through tooltips for your features. For example, explanation for Analytics is not tied to some metrics, number of hits you have got or some other technical metric, it is more about how people would use it. If I were about to sign up for BidSketch, I would see immediate value in being able to track my clients. Was it a separate test or did you just think that this is a sensible to do?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"text-decoration: underline;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Ruben:<\/span><\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Yeah, I did not test that. It just made sense to try to do that in a way we write up our features on the features page, and tour page and anywhere where we are explaining it, trying to make it clear where the value is. Those <\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">have<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> changed and it\u2019s been mostly about clarity because, through Qualaroo surveys on that page, I have seen from time to time questions that people have. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Also, in Crazy Egg I saw, \u2018Yep, they are using them\u2019, they are hovering over them, they are looking at them, but maybe I am not explaining it clearly enough or it does not make enough sense. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><img decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-815 aligncenter\" src=\"https:\/\/conversion.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2022\/06\/image04.png\" alt=\"\" width=\"599\" height=\"414\" \/><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"text-decoration: underline;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Egor:<\/span><\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I can also see that further down you are using social proof and also have an FAQ in order to, in my understanding, close some of the main objections. Was it tested separately or was it just a sensible thing to add?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"text-decoration: underline;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Ruben:<\/span><\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> You know, I have not tested the FAQ. FAQ was added based off the questions that we saw people asking. For example, when we asked them through Qualaroo, why didn&#8217;t you sign up or what is keeping you from taking on a plan&#8230; that\u2019s what we used that area for. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And the social proof was the results that people who were signing up talked about, the ones that people <\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">want<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">. So, two of them are based on them talking about time save. Any time we have tested what people want, like close more deals or save more time or make more money, save more time when it comes to proposals always <\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">wins<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">. So, that\u2019s why those specific testimonials are there and that said, there is interest in closing more sales, so we have one focused on that.<\/span><\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/li>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t\t\t                            <div data-target=\"post-newsletter-anchor\" data-device=\"mobile\"><\/div>\n                        \t\t\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t<\/ul>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\n\t\t\t<aside class=\"post-content__sidebar post-content__sidebar--form\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"sticky-newsletter\" data-target=\"post-newsletter-anchor\" data-device=\"desktop\">\n                \t<div class=\"post-newsletter\" data-target=\"post-newsletter\">\n    <h4 class=\"post-newsletter__title\">Real-world growth experiments. 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